I can't believe tomorrow is June.
Had a nice memorial day weekend -- mostly relaxed, somewhat social -- caught up on errands and sleep on Saturday; Jules (my good friend from freshman year at Wes) was in town so I spent a large part of Sunday hanging out with her, which was an unexpected pleasure; Steve and I spent about an hour on Ocean Beach yesterday, sitting on the sea wall watching people and dogs and kites frolicking. We also did a drive by tour of the memorials in San Francisco, the legion of Honor, the WW1 and Holocaust memorials, the presidio and the military cemetery.
This weekend will mark my first trip to San Diego, to watch two of our friends participate in a marathon benefitting the leukemia & lymphoma society, and to finally check out the hippo exhibit at the zoo there. It will be a quick jaunt -- won't even interfere with work - but I'm looking forward to it.
Happy Memorial Day to my Dads and half-brother, Skip, and to all the other veterans I know.
Tuesday, May 31, 2005
Thursday, May 26, 2005
Some of you may find the following post distasteful -- I apologize for that. But as it was a major moment for me, I'm using the blog to write about it. I believe most of you will be fine with what I'm about to discuss, but please know that I go into detail as I go along. That being said:
Yesterday about 10 of my coworkers and I went to the San Jose Coroner & Medical Examiner's (for brevity purposes, c/m.e.'s from now on) office for a standard orientation field trip. I was unable to go when I was actually new so I went this time around. For those of you pondering the link between organ donation and c/m.e.'s, it's that as soon as a person is declared dead under certain circumstances (any unnatural death -- accident, homicide, suicide -- or any death which occurred more than 20 days after a visit to an M.D. for a major medical problem) it is criminal to move or tamper with the body until the c/m.e. gets there or gives their express permission. They have to determine the cause (literally -- "lung disease," or "gun shot wound," etc.) and manner (natural, accidental, homicide, suicide or undetermined) so any intervention could seriously tamper with their investigation. Since nearly all brain death is from a sudden or traumatic death -- aneurysms, head trauma, asphyxiation, etc. -- this means nearly all of these patients have to go through a c/m.e. first. Thus it's good for us to have an understanding of them, and they of us.
And what an understanding we got.
I have now seen close up photographs of every type of death-causing wound one can think of -- gun shot, stabbing, blunt instrument, asphyxiation (whether self-imposed or homicidal), MVAs, burnings... I have seen examples of rigor mortis -- with discussion of its stages and the length of these stages; liver mortis or lividity -- when the blood in the body drains into whatever is the lowest part of the body after death because the heart has stopped pumping and gravity takes over -- and its stages and their lengths; early decomposition -- with bodies turning green, bloating, and sloughing off the skin, and the eyes sinking back in the head...I also saw the stages of an autopsy -- a photograph of the Y incision, a photograph before the removal of the chest plate, a photograph after the removal of the chest plate (where you could clearly see that the guy smoked somewhat -- his lungs were a little dark -- ate badly -- his heart was almost entirely encased in fatty tissue -- but didn't abuse alchohol -- his liver was still shiny and smooth), and a photograph after the removal of the organs. Apparently, when they're done dissecting your organs, they put them all in a garbage bag and then back in the chest cavity, as preparation to be sent to the funeral home for embalming. I wish more people knew this because those who are squeamish about organ removal and keeping the body 'whole' and who won't donate because of it might see things in a different light if they knew the body rarely, if ever, stays whole.
Some of it was reminiscent of some of the flashy stuff you see on CSI: a motorcyclist who'd been hit and run over, who had the tire mark of the offending car so plainly on his shirt that you could easily see the word "steel" -- such that a car in question's tires could be digitally photographed and matched via superimposing transparencies; a man with bludgeon lacerations on his head, one of which also plainly showed letters which ultimately matched to a brand name etched onto a wooded baseball bat; strange patterned head wounds that clearly match a framing hammer; conjunctival petechiae, or tiny ruptures under the lower eye lids which indicate that death was by strangling or other asphyxiation; the nature of a person's lividity showing that they were obviously lying on something lumpy such that if it wasn't still there, then the body must have been moved; determining whether a badly burned body inside a car had died by the force of the accident or by the fire by checking to see whether the throat was sooty deep down; using clay strips on a skull to slowly reconfigure the face to the point of creating a photograph to be sent to law enforcement agencies, such that a missing person can potentially be matched; and of the importance of gathering the skin "glove" from a decomposing corpse -- the skin sloughs off just like a snake's, and if you can gather the skin and keep it whole, you can get fingerprints for identification purposes;...and so on.
The real event, however, being that after seeing this power point, we then toured the facility.
And yes, there were bodies around. Nothing completely uncovered, but I definitely saw toes. Lots of dead toes. And in two cases where the coverings had slid off slightly, dead stomachs. They were mostly pale, and yellowish. (I was struck by how yellow the human body can be. We mostly see ourselves as red and white inside, but really, all our fat is yellow and it shows plainly when the red is gone.) And yes, there was a distinct smell -- not of rot or anything like that because the rooms we were in were either refrigerated and/or well ventilated, but an earthy, dusty smell. The closest I could come to relating it to Steve was those times when you are in traffic on the highway and you end up rolling slowly past road kill that has been thoroughly smashed and dessicated. There's no 'tang' to the smell, no rancor, just the earthy, dusty, odor of a fluid-less body.
I think the creepiest part was the pruning shears. Medical grade ones cost $300, so they were using your standard $30 ones...
Enough said, I think.
I have a continuing fascination (perhaps inherited from Mom) with the human body in all its gorey and glorious detail, so I wasn't at all traumatized...mostly just startled. I hadn't expected this trip to be so much about detail and so little about donation. I hadn't expected photographs and the tour and dead toes. But I'm glad I went. I know this much -- after seeing the effects of not wearing a seat belt, not using a child seat, and drunk driving, I'll be an even more careful driver.
Thanks for listening.
Yesterday about 10 of my coworkers and I went to the San Jose Coroner & Medical Examiner's (for brevity purposes, c/m.e.'s from now on) office for a standard orientation field trip. I was unable to go when I was actually new so I went this time around. For those of you pondering the link between organ donation and c/m.e.'s, it's that as soon as a person is declared dead under certain circumstances (any unnatural death -- accident, homicide, suicide -- or any death which occurred more than 20 days after a visit to an M.D. for a major medical problem) it is criminal to move or tamper with the body until the c/m.e. gets there or gives their express permission. They have to determine the cause (literally -- "lung disease," or "gun shot wound," etc.) and manner (natural, accidental, homicide, suicide or undetermined) so any intervention could seriously tamper with their investigation. Since nearly all brain death is from a sudden or traumatic death -- aneurysms, head trauma, asphyxiation, etc. -- this means nearly all of these patients have to go through a c/m.e. first. Thus it's good for us to have an understanding of them, and they of us.
And what an understanding we got.
I have now seen close up photographs of every type of death-causing wound one can think of -- gun shot, stabbing, blunt instrument, asphyxiation (whether self-imposed or homicidal), MVAs, burnings... I have seen examples of rigor mortis -- with discussion of its stages and the length of these stages; liver mortis or lividity -- when the blood in the body drains into whatever is the lowest part of the body after death because the heart has stopped pumping and gravity takes over -- and its stages and their lengths; early decomposition -- with bodies turning green, bloating, and sloughing off the skin, and the eyes sinking back in the head...I also saw the stages of an autopsy -- a photograph of the Y incision, a photograph before the removal of the chest plate, a photograph after the removal of the chest plate (where you could clearly see that the guy smoked somewhat -- his lungs were a little dark -- ate badly -- his heart was almost entirely encased in fatty tissue -- but didn't abuse alchohol -- his liver was still shiny and smooth), and a photograph after the removal of the organs. Apparently, when they're done dissecting your organs, they put them all in a garbage bag and then back in the chest cavity, as preparation to be sent to the funeral home for embalming. I wish more people knew this because those who are squeamish about organ removal and keeping the body 'whole' and who won't donate because of it might see things in a different light if they knew the body rarely, if ever, stays whole.
Some of it was reminiscent of some of the flashy stuff you see on CSI: a motorcyclist who'd been hit and run over, who had the tire mark of the offending car so plainly on his shirt that you could easily see the word "steel" -- such that a car in question's tires could be digitally photographed and matched via superimposing transparencies; a man with bludgeon lacerations on his head, one of which also plainly showed letters which ultimately matched to a brand name etched onto a wooded baseball bat; strange patterned head wounds that clearly match a framing hammer; conjunctival petechiae, or tiny ruptures under the lower eye lids which indicate that death was by strangling or other asphyxiation; the nature of a person's lividity showing that they were obviously lying on something lumpy such that if it wasn't still there, then the body must have been moved; determining whether a badly burned body inside a car had died by the force of the accident or by the fire by checking to see whether the throat was sooty deep down; using clay strips on a skull to slowly reconfigure the face to the point of creating a photograph to be sent to law enforcement agencies, such that a missing person can potentially be matched; and of the importance of gathering the skin "glove" from a decomposing corpse -- the skin sloughs off just like a snake's, and if you can gather the skin and keep it whole, you can get fingerprints for identification purposes;...and so on.
The real event, however, being that after seeing this power point, we then toured the facility.
And yes, there were bodies around. Nothing completely uncovered, but I definitely saw toes. Lots of dead toes. And in two cases where the coverings had slid off slightly, dead stomachs. They were mostly pale, and yellowish. (I was struck by how yellow the human body can be. We mostly see ourselves as red and white inside, but really, all our fat is yellow and it shows plainly when the red is gone.) And yes, there was a distinct smell -- not of rot or anything like that because the rooms we were in were either refrigerated and/or well ventilated, but an earthy, dusty smell. The closest I could come to relating it to Steve was those times when you are in traffic on the highway and you end up rolling slowly past road kill that has been thoroughly smashed and dessicated. There's no 'tang' to the smell, no rancor, just the earthy, dusty, odor of a fluid-less body.
I think the creepiest part was the pruning shears. Medical grade ones cost $300, so they were using your standard $30 ones...
Enough said, I think.
I have a continuing fascination (perhaps inherited from Mom) with the human body in all its gorey and glorious detail, so I wasn't at all traumatized...mostly just startled. I hadn't expected this trip to be so much about detail and so little about donation. I hadn't expected photographs and the tour and dead toes. But I'm glad I went. I know this much -- after seeing the effects of not wearing a seat belt, not using a child seat, and drunk driving, I'll be an even more careful driver.
Thanks for listening.
Thursday, May 19, 2005
Time has flown...in so many ways. This past weekend I finally met up with my half-siblings, for the first time since I was 6 years old. 20 years!! The whole fam-damily flew in to San Francisco for my Dad's 80th anniversary in this world, and rather than being what you'd expect of a reunion -- family drama, conflicting egos, skeletons in the closet -- it was instead pleasant, fun, jovial, and above all, fulfilling. (I guess not talking for 20 years helps avoid resentments!! I mean, really, what can a 6 year old do to offend anyone?)
So there's a new cast of characters:
Barbara -- the eldest of the House Clan of Children -- my only (half) sister -- calm, considerate, demuring -- If you recognize the name it's probably because she's audited you! -- mother of my eldest nephew (24 years old...ha!) -- married to a wonderful, sassy, I-swear-I'm-not-a-chef-but-I'll-cook-a-5-course-meal-for-you man named Ron, her college sweetheart -- owner of a lovely, quiet, ranch house in Danville, frequented by jays, quails, mourning doves, and hummingbirds -- an Aquarius.
Skip -- a.k.a. Tom the Second (don't dare call him Junior) -- the eldest 'middle' child -- the name and military legacy in our family -- father of my 3 other nephews, one of whom has served in Iraq and is headed back -- an extreme extrovert, swinging single, ski-or-die-trying type -- housed in Colorado Springs and a staunch lauder of all things Coloradian -- honestly, you'll never wonder what this man's thinking because he'll probably already be telling you! -- but don't let him tell you you're a doctor unless you really are one -- the Taurus legacy.
Todd -- the 'first baby' of the House Clan of Children -- a former auto-mechanic to the stars who has retired to the less exhausting (ha, get it?) world of electrical supply -- not to mention politics (if you see sneaker footprints on the republican campaign trail, I'll bet they're his!) -- the bird lover legacy (unless they be pigeons, in which case the raptors outrank them) -- the most bearded member of the family -- the self-described most emotional of the family -- married to Tuni, artiste extraordinaire, a triumph of the heart in multiple ways, and patron saint of wild pigs, lizards, rattlesnakes, cats, and jack russell terrors (though supposedly theirs isn't a terror, and is more of a napper...) -- a Capricorn.
And this is what I've gathered from a mere 4 days and a few emails of knowing them -- imagine if I actually use the next 20 years?
So there's a new cast of characters:
Barbara -- the eldest of the House Clan of Children -- my only (half) sister -- calm, considerate, demuring -- If you recognize the name it's probably because she's audited you! -- mother of my eldest nephew (24 years old...ha!) -- married to a wonderful, sassy, I-swear-I'm-not-a-chef-but-I'll-cook-a-5-course-meal-for-you man named Ron, her college sweetheart -- owner of a lovely, quiet, ranch house in Danville, frequented by jays, quails, mourning doves, and hummingbirds -- an Aquarius.
Skip -- a.k.a. Tom the Second (don't dare call him Junior) -- the eldest 'middle' child -- the name and military legacy in our family -- father of my 3 other nephews, one of whom has served in Iraq and is headed back -- an extreme extrovert, swinging single, ski-or-die-trying type -- housed in Colorado Springs and a staunch lauder of all things Coloradian -- honestly, you'll never wonder what this man's thinking because he'll probably already be telling you! -- but don't let him tell you you're a doctor unless you really are one -- the Taurus legacy.
Todd -- the 'first baby' of the House Clan of Children -- a former auto-mechanic to the stars who has retired to the less exhausting (ha, get it?) world of electrical supply -- not to mention politics (if you see sneaker footprints on the republican campaign trail, I'll bet they're his!) -- the bird lover legacy (unless they be pigeons, in which case the raptors outrank them) -- the most bearded member of the family -- the self-described most emotional of the family -- married to Tuni, artiste extraordinaire, a triumph of the heart in multiple ways, and patron saint of wild pigs, lizards, rattlesnakes, cats, and jack russell terrors (though supposedly theirs isn't a terror, and is more of a napper...) -- a Capricorn.
And this is what I've gathered from a mere 4 days and a few emails of knowing them -- imagine if I actually use the next 20 years?
Wednesday, April 27, 2005
So today is Administrative Professionals Day. As the high level admin here, I took one for the team and ordered flowers for everybody. I used an online flower site.
Little did I know that this site sends its bouquets in boxes, unassembled!! So I had to assemble 11 sets of Alstroemaria this afternoon...oh the irony. Anyway, in the process I discovered one of the perks of working in the health care industry. On my 9th set of flowers, I sliced my left index fingertip open pretty soundly with the scissors, and wasn't sure what to do to stop the bleeding. (Small cut, but lots of blood...) Who should wander into the kitchen but the Manager of Hospital Development, who of course has a nursing degree and also happens to be a Mom. In a flash she created a makeshift butterflied tape thing to "seal" the wound, gauzed it, and then stuck another band aid on top. After profusely thanking her as a coworker, boss, nurse, and mother (don't worry Mom, you're still my favorite nurse-mother!), I was then faced with the dilemma of finishing my flower arranging duties without getting my little war-wound wet. Perk # 2: an ample supply of surgical gloves.
But I also happened to have my own pair. We're filming a training video for a specific type of donation: Donation after Cardiac Death, or DCD. It's a slightly different and less common occurence than donation after Brain Death, so the video is to familiarize our staff with the differences. I volunteered to act in it and got slated with the role of grieving sister (so, in case you were having an existential crisis about whether or not I could cry on cue, then know this -- I can and did. I credit the staff members who were playing themselves, though, because their obvious sympathy and support is what made it real enough for me to cry). In any case, we filmed in a nearby hospital's ICU and OR and I sneaked a pair of bright blue surgical gloves, since they're handy (har har) for just about everything under the sun. And I happened to be wearing the coat we filmed in, the gloves forgotten in an inside pocket, to work today.
The DCD video will be shown at the staff meeting next Tuesday. I'm thinking of dressing up Academy Award styles...
I also have to give a shout-out to my friend Noah, who dedicated 4 hours of uncompensated time to editing the film for us, thereby giving me a shotgun education in the wonders of Final Cut Pro. Thanks Noah!
Little did I know that this site sends its bouquets in boxes, unassembled!! So I had to assemble 11 sets of Alstroemaria this afternoon...oh the irony. Anyway, in the process I discovered one of the perks of working in the health care industry. On my 9th set of flowers, I sliced my left index fingertip open pretty soundly with the scissors, and wasn't sure what to do to stop the bleeding. (Small cut, but lots of blood...) Who should wander into the kitchen but the Manager of Hospital Development, who of course has a nursing degree and also happens to be a Mom. In a flash she created a makeshift butterflied tape thing to "seal" the wound, gauzed it, and then stuck another band aid on top. After profusely thanking her as a coworker, boss, nurse, and mother (don't worry Mom, you're still my favorite nurse-mother!), I was then faced with the dilemma of finishing my flower arranging duties without getting my little war-wound wet. Perk # 2: an ample supply of surgical gloves.
But I also happened to have my own pair. We're filming a training video for a specific type of donation: Donation after Cardiac Death, or DCD. It's a slightly different and less common occurence than donation after Brain Death, so the video is to familiarize our staff with the differences. I volunteered to act in it and got slated with the role of grieving sister (so, in case you were having an existential crisis about whether or not I could cry on cue, then know this -- I can and did. I credit the staff members who were playing themselves, though, because their obvious sympathy and support is what made it real enough for me to cry). In any case, we filmed in a nearby hospital's ICU and OR and I sneaked a pair of bright blue surgical gloves, since they're handy (har har) for just about everything under the sun. And I happened to be wearing the coat we filmed in, the gloves forgotten in an inside pocket, to work today.
The DCD video will be shown at the staff meeting next Tuesday. I'm thinking of dressing up Academy Award styles...
I also have to give a shout-out to my friend Noah, who dedicated 4 hours of uncompensated time to editing the film for us, thereby giving me a shotgun education in the wonders of Final Cut Pro. Thanks Noah!
Monday, April 04, 2005
Wow, what an eventful but totally unplanned weekend. On Saturday, Steve and I drove across the golden gate bridge and up to the top of Hawk Hill in the Marin Headlands and just sat at the top, looking down at the city, the bay, and the Golden Gate bridge, and enjoying the crystal-clear, beautiful weather. All kinds of wildflowers were blooming, especially brilliant orange california poppies, and I was torn between looking at the hillside and looking at the view!
As we headed back down we stopped to read all the sign-boards about the various military installments built into the hill, and then Steve happened to remember the Marine Mammal Rehabilitation Center nestled up in the hill, so we visited that too. We watched them training underweight elephant seal pups (rescued from various beaches in the area) how to swallow fish. For those of you who have never heard a baby elephant seal vocalize, let me tell you, these things don't roar or bark -- they literally squawk, the most gravely, high-pitched squawk you can imagine coming from a sea creature!!
Since we were over there, we decided to stop in and see Sausalito -- a very cute area -- and then Steve also remembered an exhibit his Dad had taken him to many moons ago -- a working scale model of the tidal forces for the entire bay area. (Unfortunately, there's only one image on the website and it conveys absolutely no sense of the thing...but if you're curious, here's the website.) Imagine yourself in a giant warehouse filled mostly with shallow chlorine pools (about waist high). Now imagine that those chlorine pools were cut into the shape of all of the bays in the bay area, and that the bottoms of them were filled or dug-out to mimic the actual underwater topography of each area. Visitors walk on the 'landmass' part of the exhibit (you can stand at the tip of San Francisco, for example) and can look out into the pools, which have all the bridges represented, all the towns labeled, and are used to determine how building bridges or dams or digging channels for shipping or what have you might affect the bay area.
It was pretty darn interesting for the first 10 minutes and then you got the gist of it!! But it was still cool to see.
We headed home and spent a low-key night preparing for our whale watch on Sunday -- which was then canceled due to anticipated thunderstorms. Bummer!! So we decided to make it 'home improvement day,' and trundled off to Lowes to buy odds and ends for pet projects we'd been wanting to do for ages. By the end of the day, we managed to morph our second bedroom space into what we can actually call a respectable 'den,' rather than 'room full of boxes and books with a desk that you can't really use for all the crap that's on it.' (~i_i)
It was a busy but satisfying weekend, especially in that we didn't plan a single moment of it!!
As we headed back down we stopped to read all the sign-boards about the various military installments built into the hill, and then Steve happened to remember the Marine Mammal Rehabilitation Center nestled up in the hill, so we visited that too. We watched them training underweight elephant seal pups (rescued from various beaches in the area) how to swallow fish. For those of you who have never heard a baby elephant seal vocalize, let me tell you, these things don't roar or bark -- they literally squawk, the most gravely, high-pitched squawk you can imagine coming from a sea creature!!
Since we were over there, we decided to stop in and see Sausalito -- a very cute area -- and then Steve also remembered an exhibit his Dad had taken him to many moons ago -- a working scale model of the tidal forces for the entire bay area. (Unfortunately, there's only one image on the website and it conveys absolutely no sense of the thing...but if you're curious, here's the website.) Imagine yourself in a giant warehouse filled mostly with shallow chlorine pools (about waist high). Now imagine that those chlorine pools were cut into the shape of all of the bays in the bay area, and that the bottoms of them were filled or dug-out to mimic the actual underwater topography of each area. Visitors walk on the 'landmass' part of the exhibit (you can stand at the tip of San Francisco, for example) and can look out into the pools, which have all the bridges represented, all the towns labeled, and are used to determine how building bridges or dams or digging channels for shipping or what have you might affect the bay area.
It was pretty darn interesting for the first 10 minutes and then you got the gist of it!! But it was still cool to see.
We headed home and spent a low-key night preparing for our whale watch on Sunday -- which was then canceled due to anticipated thunderstorms. Bummer!! So we decided to make it 'home improvement day,' and trundled off to Lowes to buy odds and ends for pet projects we'd been wanting to do for ages. By the end of the day, we managed to morph our second bedroom space into what we can actually call a respectable 'den,' rather than 'room full of boxes and books with a desk that you can't really use for all the crap that's on it.' (~i_i)
It was a busy but satisfying weekend, especially in that we didn't plan a single moment of it!!
Thursday, March 31, 2005
Find below some pics from my commute home. These were taken with the camera function on my phone. Traffic home from Oakland to San Francisco over the bridge is always at a crawl, so please don't fear for my safety in taking these.
It gives you a good idea of the range of weather we've been having (though we seem to be drying out now...) and of the beauty, even during traffic, of my surroundings.
This reads chronologically from the bottom up, starting with the blue-toned bridge pictures from February 18th...
It gives you a good idea of the range of weather we've been having (though we seem to be drying out now...) and of the beauty, even during traffic, of my surroundings.
This reads chronologically from the bottom up, starting with the blue-toned bridge pictures from February 18th...
Tuesday, March 22, 2005
Okay, this has to be one of the funnier things that has happened to me in ever so long a time.
This weekend Leslie and I went to Nordstrom's so she could spend a long-ignored birthday gift certificate. It just so happened that Nordstrom's was having a promotional event for Uggs, the ubiquitous ugly yet ever-so-comfy sheep skin boots seen on starlets for the last few years. This promotion involved signing up for a contest to win Uggs and a $100 gift certificate to Nordstrom's, trying on a pair of uggs in their new spring colors, and then getting free water/juice, a free foot massage, etc. So we decided, why not?
Uggs are comfy but I wasn't all that impressed. Leslie was a bigger fan than I. I could understand buying them if you live in a cold clime, but since my move to San Francisco, it would be way too trendy to rock them...
So naturally, what happens next?
With no warning, a pair of Uggs was on my doorstep this morning. I won the Uggs. In a color called 'Orchid,' dark pink.
I was on my way to work so I have yet to see if they included the gift certificate.
My life is astoundingly serendipitous in a hilarious and frequent kind of way.
This weekend Leslie and I went to Nordstrom's so she could spend a long-ignored birthday gift certificate. It just so happened that Nordstrom's was having a promotional event for Uggs, the ubiquitous ugly yet ever-so-comfy sheep skin boots seen on starlets for the last few years. This promotion involved signing up for a contest to win Uggs and a $100 gift certificate to Nordstrom's, trying on a pair of uggs in their new spring colors, and then getting free water/juice, a free foot massage, etc. So we decided, why not?
Uggs are comfy but I wasn't all that impressed. Leslie was a bigger fan than I. I could understand buying them if you live in a cold clime, but since my move to San Francisco, it would be way too trendy to rock them...
So naturally, what happens next?
With no warning, a pair of Uggs was on my doorstep this morning. I won the Uggs. In a color called 'Orchid,' dark pink.
I was on my way to work so I have yet to see if they included the gift certificate.
My life is astoundingly serendipitous in a hilarious and frequent kind of way.
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